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January 26, 2010

Seth Godin Addresses Linchpin and Church Marketing

(Filed under: Interviews)

Recently, Jeff Goins, who has blogged for us before, had the opportunity to interview Seth Godin as part of a blog tour for his new book, Linchpin: Are You Indispensable? If you're interested in learning more about the book, you can read Jeff's review.

Their conversation turned to church marketing, and Jeff was kind enough to allow us to reprint that portion of their interview. These two questions contain ample material for us to read, digest and discuss.

Without further ado, here is a portion of their conversation:

Jeff: In Tribes, you wrote about faith versus religion. You spoke at a Catalyst conference awhile back. You even endorsed Anne Jackson's book Mad Church Disease. It seems that you've made intentional efforts to participate in the Christian conversation recently. Can you explain why or what brought that about? How has faith framed your own worldview?

Seth: I have a huge problem with large bureaucracies, including organized religions. I think they stomp on humanity and kindness and connection. On the other hand, faith is so important. Faith in your future, in other people, in your ability to make a difference. What Anne showed me is that there are many people who are starting to distinguish between the status quo of religion and the essential humanity of faith, and I endorsed her book because she did such a good job of leading a conversation about faith. Faith is largely personal, and if you talk about it too much or proselytize, it can start to fade on you. Just do it.

Jeff: What's the different between building a permission-based tribe and proselytizing? In All Marketers are Liars, you explain how everyone has a message to share; how do you do that without your company, church, etc. turning into another bureaucratic system? In other words, is there room for marketing and storytelling in faith?

Seth: Lots of terms here, so let's try to sort it out:
Religions do marketing. They always have. Big religions tell stories that spread, stories that resonate and stories that people are attracted to.

There's nothing wrong with this. The job of marketing is to make connections with people at a level they wish to be connected.

Faith is not religion. Faith would exist even without a particular book or dogma. Faith makes religion work better, and sometimes religion makes faith work better. I don't think there are particular "faiths". I think there are lots of religions, but at their core, there's pretty much one faith. How can one possibly tell someone that they have the wrong faith?

If your religion gets in the way of your faith, or in the way of sharing the way your faith makes you feel, that's possibly because it's become a stuck system, one that accrues power, not a lever to make it easier to be faithful.

Proselytizing, in my view, is like spam. Ringing a doorbell, standing at a bus stop, buying a billboard... those are not permission-based activities. On the other hand, delivering anticipated, personal and relevant messages to people who want to get them... that works, and it always has, and it's working better than ever. I think that sharing ideas with people who want to hear them is the essence of what it means to be a marketer, and being a good person makes this a lot easier.

Posted by Joshua Cody at January 26, 2010 8:00 AM

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Comments

I really appreciate the last paragraph (probably because it aligns with our marketing philosophy :D). No public advertising, just personal invitations.

Posted by: Andy Wittwer at January 26, 2010 7:17 AM

Thanks, Andy. I agree. This is a short post and interview, but there were so many good tidbits to let sink in and saturate. I never thought of proselytizing as spam, but Godin really nails it on the head, I think. It's not that we shouldn't share our faith, but rather we need to do so in a way that doesn't cost the integrity of what we believe.

Posted by: Jeff Goins at January 26, 2010 8:11 AM

I agree and disagree with proselytizing being spam. Sure leaving a track as your tip at a restaurant is spam, but talking to a stranger about Christ does not have to be. Spam is where you care more about getting your message out than you do the person receiving it. Sharing our faith can and should be done in the context of caring for the other person.

I like Seth Godin's ideas very much on so many things and I know this post was a subset of the larger conversation he had, but I would not discount large organizations. The body of Christ is a large organization with Jesus as the head. He has called certain people to be the head of different parts of this organization, whether the rulers of the land, pastors, or parents. It is the way He set things up. Yes, we are each accountable to Jesus individually, but we are also a part of this large bureaucracy called the body of Christ.

Posted by: Kevin Shorter at January 26, 2010 10:31 AM

I've liked Seth for a long time... his books & blogs have been very helpful as an additive to the things God was leading us to do.

But, these comments seem to be a bit naive. Seth addressing the topic of faith vs. religion is, obviously, out of his area of expertise.

It's not his fault - 'we' are asking him... maybe that's the problem.

Posted by: chilly at January 26, 2010 11:39 AM

Kevin, I think Seth is addressing "faith" and "religion" in a specialized way, a way he's defined them. In that way, I appreciate what he says here.

Still, we have to be careful with our terms here. The way I define faith and religion is different. On those issues, Seth is unqualified. For what he's talking about, though, he's made some good points.

-Marshall Jones Jr.

Posted by: bondChristian at January 26, 2010 2:42 PM

@Kevin - While I can't speak for Seth, I can speak for my first impressions of Linchpin (which in many ways mirrors topics already addressed in Purple Cow and Tribes). The "bigness" that Seth is criticizing is more the factory mentality than the actual size of an organization or company (church, even). His point in this book (which I agree with) is this: are you constituents merely cogs in a machine that help it move forward in dominating the world, or are they valued individuals? I would argue that this is nowhere more important than in churches.

Posted by: Jeff Goins at January 26, 2010 2:46 PM

i really like the last sentence- but i wonder, don't we as a church sometimes have to share our message with people who don't want to hear it?

Posted by: jackie at January 27, 2010 9:31 AM

I think sharing Christ with a stranger is silly. If we frame faith as a relationship, then we're introducing ourselves by introducing someone else. Even if you actually had Jesus standing there with you, just to walk up to a random person and start telling them about your companion ... I guess I can't speak for others, but if you did that to me, not only are you a nut, but so is your friend. How about making a billboard for your friend? Or an informational brochure? Ridiculous. You introduce your friends only to other friends.
Regarding delivering a hard-to-hear message - that's a right you earn as a friend. Would you tell a stranger to stop smoking? No, but a friend might just need someone who truly cares about them to step up, call them out, and help them through.
That said, I'm not sure I can jump on the train of "many religions, one faith." People have faith in lots of different things, and while I'm no one to tell another their faith is "wrong," Scripture pretty clearly states that Faith in Christ is the only way.

Posted by: Andy Wittwer at January 27, 2010 4:20 PM

Seth makes people feel better about their failure. His quote "I think there are lots of religions, but at their core, there's pretty much one faith." is stupid. If Seth Godin is a Christian his statements of belief are vague in the interview and don't express a belief in Jesus.

We as Christians need to expect full devotion. Not half hearted responses from intelligent people like Seth.

Seth can suck it if he thinks there is only one religion. Christianity is not the same as Islam or Buddhism or Hinduism. We are not a works based religion/faith.

And to consider all religions as one is to be out of touch with the spirituality of America.

Posted by: Jeff Collier at February 2, 2010 11:35 PM

I would like to apologize to Seth for every ignorant, passionate yet good people with great intentions in here who are obviously a Christian. I am an Executive Pastor in a major ministry and cringe at thinking I may be associated with some of the other Christian folks in here. For 1? How hypocritical for us to criticize Seth yet utilize his genius in marketing. I refuse to go through every comment in here and copy and paste and begin a comment war like i am on a youtube page.

What I will do is thank Seth and CMS for helping as Christians and Churches realize how stupid and ineffective what we do to get the Word out we are. Just look at every Christian Tshirt... you will get my point (iTune IN for itunes? Meant To Die for Mt. Dew?) seriously?

There was NO ONE as relevant as Christ. As churches, we have been tuned out and tagged as stupid. If we are not careful churches will be filled with Spiritual InBreeding, Filling our pews with our own families and never reaching into the communities for souls. Jesus walked among the community... or as church would say "sinners". He Loved people... I am pretty sure He wouldnt tell Seth to Suck It Jeff.

So... before any other loud mouthed Christian wants to verbally vomit and before I fill this little comment with my own opinion... Hey Seth... Thank you. I hear you... We as the "people" of God... we need to represent him and ourselves better.

Thanks CMS. Your web address alone is what drew my attention because it told the truth... HELP US.

Posted by: Greg Phipps at February 3, 2010 6:02 PM

I would like to apologize to Seth for every ignorant, passionate yet good people with great intentions in here who are obviously a Christian. I am an Executive Pastor in a major ministry and cringe at thinking I may be associated with some of the other Christian folks in here. For 1? How hypocritical for us to criticize Seth yet utilize his genius in marketing. I refuse to go through every comment in here and copy and paste and begin a comment war like i am on a youtube page.

What I will do is thank Seth and CMS for helping as Christians and Churches realize how stupid and ineffective what we do to get the Word out we are. Just look at every Christian Tshirt... you will get my point (iTune IN for itunes? Meant To Die for Mt. Dew?) seriously?

There was NO ONE as relevant as Christ. As churches, we have been tuned out and tagged as stupid. If we are not careful churches will be filled with Spiritual InBreeding, Filling our pews with our own families and never reaching into the communities for souls. Jesus walked among the community... or as church would say "sinners". He Loved people... I am pretty sure He wouldnt tell Seth to Suck It Jeff.

So... before any other loud mouthed Christian wants to verbally vomit and before I fill this little comment with my own opinion... Hey Seth... Thank you. I hear you... We as the "people" of God... we need to represent him and ourselves better.

Thanks CMS. Your web address alone is what drew my attention because it told the truth... HELP US.

Posted by: Greg Phipps at February 3, 2010 6:06 PM

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