Seems to me that the Church's primary task is outlined in the NT (worship, fellowship, discipleship, etc.)and everything else is conversation. Sure I think people should start business and empower people, but I'm not sure the Church is supposed to be involved at the organizational level in social and economic development. I'm for these things, but not as part of the Church's role.

I can understand the skepticism, though looking at the New Testament I'd see a lot in Acts that looks similar to what's happening with this church in Portland.

Perhaps pastors don't need to be involved in social and economic development, but someone in the church should be. I don't know how the church in Acts could work very well if someone wasn't tackling those issues.

I tend to side with Tim on this one. I do not think the church should be involved in establishing businesses (or micro-businesses for that matter). The potential/gradual conflict of interest can really mess-up a well-intentioned idea. On the other hand, I do think establishing training and/or opportunities for businessmen or women in the church to use their giftings in this capacity are a must. East Bay Fellowship in Danville, Calif., is an excellent example of this. The senior pastor wanted a way for the businessmen in the church to get involved and apply their business smarts to “kingdom” purposes. The result was that a group of men (many were investors) established a foundation that invested money. They in turn used the earnings to buy housing for retired ministers in the church who could not have afforded otherwise.

I've just returned from a mission trip to a slum outside Nairobi, Kenya, where a big part of our work was helping teach cottage industry skills to people. The local church which invited us and which hosted the training is going to help set up a cooperative through which the people can make and sell their products. In that situation, we were providing assistance just as practical and necessary as if we'd been handing out bags of food or boxes of clothing.

The pastor we worked with in Kenya is very sensitive to the possibility of abuse, and the co-op will be kept at arm's length from the church as a result. But I think hard and fast rules on an issue like this could blind us to very practical, meaningful ways in which we can show Christian compassion to those in need.

We need to look at the reasoning behind why Mondaine wanted to empower people. He is right the "CHURCH" of today isn't doing anything for the people besides taking there money and building stadiums that seat 15,000+. So let’s really be sober here and think on who really benifits on these Community based establishments. Mondaine is simply saying that the “CHURCH” needs to get off of it’s a$$ and do something. To take back or in this case re-establish what the church had been doing for years. Who do you think where some the first to establish schools, hospitals, and whatever else. If the Jews can take care of their own and the so called colts of our time can take care of their own, then what’s so wrong with empowering the community that surrounds a local church? Remember I said; E m p o w e r i n g T h e C o m m u n i t y!

Didn't Jesus cleanse the church of sellers, vendors, and money exchangers. Whether it was for the wealth of a single vendor or the wealth of the church. Im pretty sure Jesus rebuked both. Matt. 21:12

I am a web designer/webmaster and I have been commissioned to do a site for a group that is a non-profit organization that provides consultation services to churches and communities on how to use the church as a center of a community to build economic and social empowerment.

At this point we are going about developing a strategy to take this idea to the average church goer and pastors too.

On the one hand the main thing that is so difficult is that people seem to perceive the church as a haven from the world of constant advertising. To take this into their religious lives is to some blasphemy.

On the other hand there is real economic value in the congregation and this economic value can be leveraged to help the communty.

Both point so view are valid and rightfully skeptical of each other. However, I don't think it is nearly as black and white of an issue as what Matt pointed out. In that case Jesus was angry at the abuse of the church by the money lenders. Taking advantage of theological belief and trust to make money was what he was pissed off at.

Do I think Jesus is compatible with a business man? Certainly. I think Jesus works with Business men every day. At the end of the day I am pretty sure that it comes down to whether or not the pratice of business takes away from the focus on the Father which the church is supposed to provide.

I think it is fine to sponsor church events, advertise for local church sponsored businesses and such while people are filing in and out or sitting waiting for the service to start or with pamphlets that are handed out to the congregation.

While I get the point of crossing the line I also understand the world we live in. After all, Jesus did say "Be wise as serpents and harmless as doves..." I am praying that He shows my heart what to do about this situation.

I know only one thing and that is that in the olden days the church was the bastion of the people and provided all kinds of goods and services to the community that the greedy leaders would not give to the people. In fact without that kind of support I dare say that community would have failed.

In our day and time communities are failing left and right and drugs and prostitution and violence are once again filling our streets. The degredation of the moral values of this country is staggering to behold. So if it takes economic empowerment to get people away from drugs and gangs then I say so be it. Like James said to Paul, "They have always had moses taught in the synagogues" let them refrain from this and that and go their way." So to the this and that would be stepping over the line and commercializing God. That would be sickening to behold, just as sickening as the crusader who does what he does to fill his belly with food instead existing to fill men's souls with Christ.

Well, my thinking on this issue has changed recently. I would have said a while back that the church and businesses should never mix.

However, I have seen recently opportunities abroad--especially in Africa and Asia, to use micro-businesses as an entry-way to boost people's economic status. When they are trained to create their own financial resources, it gives us an in-road to share the Gospel. No different than feeding them or any other kind of humanitarian aid.

Now, business for the sake of marketing the church in the North American culture? Not sure I'm for that, given the freedom and wealth already present in our economy. However, anything that helps us minister to the inner-city or economically downtrodden people I think is worth consideration.

Like anything else, I think there's a balance here. The question to ask really is not whether the marketing avenue or the business itself is effective, but rather, is the exercise in and of itself and within the context of the entire ministry of the church glorifying Christ?