Comments on: Deadly Viper & Racism in Marketing http://www.churchmarketingsucks.com/2009/11/deadly-viper-racism-in-marketing/ Frustrate. Educate. Motivate. Thu, 09 Feb 2012 20:01:49 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Katelin http://www.churchmarketingsucks.com/2009/11/deadly-viper-racism-in-marketing/comment-page-1/#comment-20372 Katelin Wed, 09 Mar 2011 04:55:19 +0000 http://cms.bigbadcollab.com/?p=1664#comment-20372 Wow, a lot of interesting dialogue going on here. Thanks for the post, Klint. I stumbled across this post on a Google search. You and/or your readers my be interested in By Their Strange Fruit, a blog about racism and Christianity: http://bytheirstrangefruit.blogspot.com/ This post, on the importance of the issue, is a good place to begin: http://bytheirstrangefruit.blogspot.com/2010/04/why-it-is-important.html or on the recent 2011 Super Bowl ad controversies: http://bytheirstrangefruit.blogspot.com/2011/02/pepsi-max-superbowl-commercial-love.html Wow, a lot of interesting dialogue going on here. Thanks for the post, Klint. I stumbled across this post on a Google search. You and/or your readers my be interested in By Their Strange Fruit, a blog about racism and Christianity:
http://bytheirstrangefruit.blogspot.com/

This post, on the importance of the issue, is a good place to begin: http://bytheirstrangefruit.blogspot.com/2010/04/why-it-is-important.html

or on the recent 2011 Super Bowl ad controversies:
http://bytheirstrangefruit.blogspot.com/2011/02/pepsi-max-superbowl-commercial-love.html

]]> By: Ruben http://www.churchmarketingsucks.com/2009/11/deadly-viper-racism-in-marketing/comment-page-1/#comment-9696 Ruben Tue, 29 Dec 2009 22:25:06 +0000 http://cms.bigbadcollab.com/?p=1664#comment-9696 Seems to me that this is pretty simple. Lots of folks got offended and complained. Enough did so and Z did the right thing. But you know what? This happens with every gender, race, nationality, language group, age group, etc. Personally it seems a bit blown out of proportion, but all I've seen is this blog and the cover of the books. It is to our glory to overlook an offense, but we should also be careful not to offend. The problem I have is with this continued trend to police everything in this world from any hint of offense is that it creates a cultural of whining. My kids can be mean to each other, and we rebuke our kids when they do so. SOmetimes though, I have to pull one of them aside and tell them to get some thicker skin. Yes, your sister is being a brat, but you need to learn not to take it personally, etc. Having been involved in Jewish ministry for many years, I find various degrees of anti-semitism in the church, but more often it is Judeophobia and ignorance of Jewish culture that is most disturbing. When I saw the inaccurate kanji, it just reminded me of the myriad examples of inaccurate Hebrew in Christian marketing, passion plays, church flags and banners, etc. that I've seen. My typical response is to roll my eyes and say "stupid Christians. What a bad testimony." Anytime we put something in a foreign language, we must ALWAYS verify that it is correct. Dear Publishers: You proof the English. Why wouldn't you proof the foreign language? I could give lots of examples of messed up foreign text in both Christian and mainstream media. My favorite botch is the beautiful rennaisance painting of CHrist on the cross with the sign over his head written in Hebrew, King of the Leftovers. OK people, hire a consultant already! What's the answer in all this? 1. Try not to offend! If you're a large corporation like Zondervan, do some research, present it to a test audience or something. 2. Try not be offended! We all need to get over the fact that our particular demographic group wont always be portrayed accurately all the time. Whatever label we wear, we always have baggage that comes with it. Seems to me that this is pretty simple. Lots of folks got offended and complained. Enough did so and Z did the right thing.
But you know what? This happens with every gender, race, nationality, language group, age group, etc. Personally it seems a bit blown out of proportion, but all I’ve seen is this blog and the cover of the books. It is to our glory to overlook an offense, but we should also be careful not to offend.
The problem I have is with this continued trend to police everything in this world from any hint of offense is that it creates a cultural of whining. My kids can be mean to each other, and we rebuke our kids when they do so. SOmetimes though, I have to pull one of them aside and tell them to get some thicker skin. Yes, your sister is being a brat, but you need to learn not to take it personally, etc.
Having been involved in Jewish ministry for many years, I find various degrees of anti-semitism in the church, but more often it is Judeophobia and ignorance of Jewish culture that is most disturbing.
When I saw the inaccurate kanji, it just reminded me of the myriad examples of inaccurate Hebrew in Christian marketing, passion plays, church flags and banners, etc. that I’ve seen. My typical response is to roll my eyes and say “stupid Christians. What a bad testimony.”
Anytime we put something in a foreign language, we must ALWAYS verify that it is correct. Dear Publishers: You proof the English. Why wouldn’t you proof the foreign language? I could give lots of examples of messed up foreign text in both Christian and mainstream media.
My favorite botch is the beautiful rennaisance painting of CHrist on the cross with the sign over his head written in Hebrew, King of the Leftovers. OK people, hire a consultant already!
What’s the answer in all this? 1. Try not to offend! If you’re a large corporation like Zondervan, do some research, present it to a test audience or something.
2. Try not be offended! We all need to get over the fact that our particular demographic group wont always be portrayed accurately all the time.
Whatever label we wear, we always have baggage that comes with it.

]]> By: Michael Buckingham http://www.churchmarketingsucks.com/2009/11/deadly-viper-racism-in-marketing/comment-page-1/#comment-9695 Michael Buckingham Sat, 21 Nov 2009 17:55:42 +0000 http://cms.bigbadcollab.com/?p=1664#comment-9695 I think Mike Fastor and the gang really showed the way to handle this. They handled it just in a way that was true to the content of the book (integrity). Zondervan...not as impressed. They handled it like a typical corporate body. Which, I think could have been avoided if they had decided to engage in the conversation. My heart hurts for Mike and Jud, it really was sad when I pulled up the site today and saw the notice. Please remember them in your prayers. I think Mike Fastor and the gang really showed the way to handle this. They handled it just in a way that was true to the content of the book (integrity).
Zondervan…not as impressed. They handled it like a typical corporate body. Which, I think could have been avoided if they had decided to engage in the conversation.
My heart hurts for Mike and Jud, it really was sad when I pulled up the site today and saw the notice. Please remember them in your prayers.

]]> By: Randy http://www.churchmarketingsucks.com/2009/11/deadly-viper-racism-in-marketing/comment-page-1/#comment-9694 Randy Sat, 21 Nov 2009 11:07:35 +0000 http://cms.bigbadcollab.com/?p=1664#comment-9694 Kevin, They added the Christian witness argument after the fact. Professor Rah's initial post articulates his initial reaction: *********** "Why can’t Christian publishers get a clue? Recently, I received my copy of the Zondervan catalog. In one of the circulars, there was an advertisement for a book called Deadly Viper Character Assassins: A Kung Fu Survival Guide for Life and Leadership. So the “Kung Fu” part got my attention, as well as the dragon on the cover and the Chinese characters. I guess I was hoping against hope that it was the story of an Asian-American Christian rather than another example of Asian culture being pimped out to sell products." ********* Hence my original thoughts. Kevin, They added the Christian witness argument after the fact. Professor Rah’s initial post articulates his initial reaction:
***********
“Why can’t Christian publishers get a clue?
Recently, I received my copy of the Zondervan catalog. In one of the circulars, there was an advertisement for a book called Deadly Viper Character Assassins: A Kung Fu Survival Guide for Life and Leadership.
So the “Kung Fu” part got my attention, as well as the dragon on the cover and the Chinese characters. I guess I was hoping against hope that it was the story of an Asian-American Christian rather than another example of Asian culture being pimped out to sell products.”
*********
Hence my original thoughts.

]]> By: michael Lukaszewski http://www.churchmarketingsucks.com/2009/11/deadly-viper-racism-in-marketing/comment-page-1/#comment-9693 michael Lukaszewski Fri, 20 Nov 2009 03:16:33 +0000 http://cms.bigbadcollab.com/?p=1664#comment-9693 i think zondervan caved. i think zondervan caved.

]]> By: gar http://www.churchmarketingsucks.com/2009/11/deadly-viper-racism-in-marketing/comment-page-1/#comment-9692 gar Thu, 19 Nov 2009 23:07:25 +0000 http://cms.bigbadcollab.com/?p=1664#comment-9692 hey Peter (&others) I apologize for the slow response... I've been busy. I think at issue is the conflicting view that the Deadly Viper controversy is merely a "personal insult" versus a part of a systemic, repeated pattern of indifference and exploitation of Asian culture. Let me quote Tim Wise (who is white): "To white folks, racism is seen mostly as individual and interpersonal--as with the uttering of a prejudicial remark or bigoted slur. For blacks, it is that too, but typically more: namely, it is the pattern and practice of policies and social institutions, which have the effect of perpetuating deeply embedded structural inequalities between people on the basis of race. To blacks, and most folks of color, racism is systemic. To whites, it is purely personal." You may not see nothing wrong with ninja marketing, kitchy kung-fu imagery because your lens is focused on the issue as something that's just personal - "Just get over it! It's not that bad! Ninjas are fun!" It's much bigger than that. Try re-reading Prof. Rah's letter of concerns with the perspective the concern is from a systemic, "big picture" level: http://profrah.wordpress.com/2009/11/03/an-open-letter-to-zondervan-and-to-mike-foster-and-jud-wilhite-authors-of-deadly-viper-character-assassin-a-kung-fu-survival-guide-for-life-and-leadership/ hey Peter (&others)
I apologize for the slow response… I’ve been busy.
I think at issue is the conflicting view that the Deadly Viper controversy is merely a “personal insult” versus a part of a systemic, repeated pattern of indifference and exploitation of Asian culture.
Let me quote Tim Wise (who is white):
“To white folks, racism is seen mostly as individual and interpersonal–as with the uttering of a prejudicial remark or bigoted slur. For blacks, it is that too, but typically more: namely, it is the pattern and practice of policies and social institutions, which have the effect of perpetuating deeply embedded structural inequalities between people on the basis of race. To blacks, and most folks of color, racism is systemic. To whites, it is purely personal.”
You may not see nothing wrong with ninja marketing, kitchy kung-fu imagery because your lens is focused on the issue as something that’s just personal – “Just get over it! It’s not that bad! Ninjas are fun!” It’s much bigger than that.
Try re-reading Prof. Rah’s letter of concerns with the perspective the concern is from a systemic, “big picture” level:
http://profrah.wordpress.com/2009/11/03/an-open-letter-to-zondervan-and-to-mike-foster-and-jud-wilhite-authors-of-deadly-viper-character-assassin-a-kung-fu-survival-guide-for-life-and-leadership/

]]> By: haemin http://www.churchmarketingsucks.com/2009/11/deadly-viper-racism-in-marketing/comment-page-1/#comment-9691 haemin Thu, 19 Nov 2009 21:53:09 +0000 http://cms.bigbadcollab.com/?p=1664#comment-9691 maybe i'm saying what someone has already said, but the reason the marketing for this book (mildly) offends me is that it just cheapens east asian cultures. maybe it's not a horrendous offense, maybe it was 100% innocent, maybe it's even cool from a design standpoint, but it makes chinese and japanese cultures seem really... cheap. and on one hand, i do agree with the people saying we should all just get over it and turn the other cheek. i mean, racism will always exist on earth, so maybe it's better to be as gracious about it as possible. but on the other hand, i think one of the reasons asian-americans get so upset over these things is because it seems like many people don't believe that making fun of Asians is racist, just funny. a person calls as black man a nigger and he KNOWS he just said something really offensive. the same person might call an asian man a "chink" and just think it's funny - like "what's the big deal?" and that's the part that bothers me. i'm still not 100% sure if it was the right decision for Deadly Viper to shut down their site entirely, but i respect both sides for meeting each other on common ground in the end. here's to more love, more grace, and more of heaven on earth til Jesus returns. maybe i’m saying what someone has already said, but the reason the marketing for this book (mildly) offends me is that it just cheapens east asian cultures. maybe it’s not a horrendous offense, maybe it was 100% innocent, maybe it’s even cool from a design standpoint, but it makes chinese and japanese cultures seem really… cheap.
and on one hand, i do agree with the people saying we should all just get over it and turn the other cheek. i mean, racism will always exist on earth, so maybe it’s better to be as gracious about it as possible. but on the other hand, i think one of the reasons asian-americans get so upset over these things is because it seems like many people don’t believe that making fun of Asians is racist, just funny.
a person calls as black man a nigger and he KNOWS he just said something really offensive. the same person might call an asian man a “chink” and just think it’s funny – like “what’s the big deal?” and that’s the part that bothers me.
i’m still not 100% sure if it was the right decision for Deadly Viper to shut down their site entirely, but i respect both sides for meeting each other on common ground in the end.
here’s to more love, more grace, and more of heaven on earth til Jesus returns.

]]> By: Sean Salter http://www.churchmarketingsucks.com/2009/11/deadly-viper-racism-in-marketing/comment-page-1/#comment-9690 Sean Salter Wed, 18 Nov 2009 10:16:01 +0000 http://cms.bigbadcollab.com/?p=1664#comment-9690 Wait Ninjas aren't assassins? Ninja are honorable? Oh noes. . . did the Samurai lie? Are Samurai honorable? Were they exactly like the portrayal in Last Samurai with Tom Cruise? Or more like the Book Shogun? I so confused! Wait Ninjas aren’t assassins? Ninja are honorable? Oh noes. . . did the Samurai lie? Are Samurai honorable? Were they exactly like the portrayal in Last Samurai with Tom Cruise? Or more like the Book Shogun? I so confused!

]]> By: Peter Nguyen http://www.churchmarketingsucks.com/2009/11/deadly-viper-racism-in-marketing/comment-page-1/#comment-9689 Peter Nguyen Wed, 18 Nov 2009 00:03:25 +0000 http://cms.bigbadcollab.com/?p=1664#comment-9689 Kevin - really, you should get your facts straight, Rah hasn't... in his post, there are a bunch of erroneous complaints that he's addressed on other posts. The nonsensical use of kanji characters (the characters are for ninja, samurai and assassin. The 'voice over of a white person doing a faux Asian' accent - which is authentic Chopsocky style. The only 'offensive' is use of an image of ninja and identifying them as... wait for it... assassins. again, back to your poor choice of a title, this isn't racism, it's cultural hyper-sensitivity. Kevin – really, you should get your facts straight, Rah hasn’t… in his post, there are a bunch of erroneous complaints that he’s addressed on other posts. The nonsensical use of kanji characters (the characters are for ninja, samurai and assassin. The ‘voice over of a white person doing a faux Asian’ accent – which is authentic Chopsocky style. The only ‘offensive’ is use of an image of ninja and identifying them as… wait for it… assassins.
again, back to your poor choice of a title, this isn’t racism, it’s cultural hyper-sensitivity.

]]> By: Kevin D. Hendricks http://www.churchmarketingsucks.com/2009/11/deadly-viper-racism-in-marketing/comment-page-1/#comment-9688 Kevin D. Hendricks Tue, 17 Nov 2009 09:39:09 +0000 http://cms.bigbadcollab.com/?p=1664#comment-9688 Randy, it seems Rah is getting <a href="http://profrah.wordpress.com/2009/11/17/update-still-waiting-word-from-zondervan-in-the-meantime-a-challenge-to-zondervan-as-they-continue-their-deliberations/" rel="nofollow">comments from non-Christians expressing their frustration over the book</a>, though he's had to delete some of those comments for profanity. There is a concern over how this stereotyped marketing would damage the Christian witness. Michael, Rah lays out what he found offensive in <a href="http://profrah.wordpress.com/2009/11/03/an-open-letter-to-zondervan-and-to-mike-foster-and-jud-wilhite-authors-of-deadly-viper-character-assassin-a-kung-fu-survival-guide-for-life-and-leadership/" rel="nofollow">this post</a>. The concern isn't that they're simply using cultural themes, it's that they're mocking those themes (he gives several examples, and it's probably less apparent in the actual book and more so in the marketing of the book). Randy, it seems Rah is getting comments from non-Christians expressing their frustration over the book, though he’s had to delete some of those comments for profanity. There is a concern over how this stereotyped marketing would damage the Christian witness.
Michael, Rah lays out what he found offensive in this post. The concern isn’t that they’re simply using cultural themes, it’s that they’re mocking those themes (he gives several examples, and it’s probably less apparent in the actual book and more so in the marketing of the book).

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