Comments on: Are All Healthy Churches Growing?

By: Tony York

Tony York — Fri, 24 Apr 2009 11:40:35 +0000

Hmmm… Tony Morgan in the middle of a church size frustration… who’d a thought it? :)

By: Travis

Travis — Tue, 24 Feb 2009 14:37:41 +0000

I’m personally a fan of mega churches. I see churches like Fellowship Church in Dallas, TX and I drool. Not because of all their programs, but because they’ve found a way to get thousands of people saved. I come from a small town and our church has grown from 87 people 3 years ago, to 200 people today. I’d say we’ve been pretty successful at bringing in the lost and getting them saved. But if we could have 2,000 people in service I’d be more than happy. In the beginning of Acts it talks about thousands being won each day. I don’t think God is against large churches.

By: Kevin D. Hendricks

Kevin D. Hendricks — Mon, 23 Feb 2009 06:13:11 +0000

Good comments everybody. More than anything I was just trying to promote some discussion and thought on this, which seemed limited in the 140-character Twitter land and wasn’t happening on the Out of Ur blog.
simon d, I’m not trying to make a point one way or the other. I’m trying to promote thought on the subject, and I think that’s helpful. As for being gossip or throwing anyone under the bus, I wasn’t trying to be harsh. I was trying to give an accurate context for the discussion. I hope I was being fair, but call me out if I wasn’t. As for being gossip, Tony Morgan commented publicly and it seems appropriate to debate those comments publicly. That seems more helpful than pretending it didn’t happen and isn’t an issue.

By: katdish

katdish — Fri, 20 Feb 2009 22:19:59 +0000

Not that this will settle any debate, but I’ve always considered growth to be a by-product, not an end result. And while I wouldn’t be considered a green thumb on my best day, I like the analogy of a grove of fruit trees where a few are planted, fertilized, watered and cared for. Those trees are healthy and produce a harvest. Contrast that with a large number of trees that are not given proper care, weeds are allowed to choke off the roots, and they become unhealthy to a point producing no fruit or dying off altogether. I’m not saying that megachurches cannot be effective, but we are in the business of making disciples, not packing in a huge crowd every Sunday (said the gal from a tiny upstart church plant).

By: Jesse Phillips

Jesse Phillips — Fri, 20 Feb 2009 15:36:08 +0000

Url, I think that was a little harsh.
Tony, I think that was a little harsh response.
Kevin, I think this blog is a little harsh on Tony. (the tone comes off a little harsh against him).
I love you guys!
Kevin, Url, I’m inclined to agree with y’all. If I’m truly honest, I think the mega model is plain unbiblical – but I also know that I’m probably wrong about that. (And ironically I work at Catalyst).
I just WISH WISH WISH we could have another Jerusalem council or something to discuss this issue! Maybe an Atlanta council, or a Dallas council.
I really think we need a loving, patient, honest, frank discussion about the philosophy behind small church vs mega church vs reproducing vs attractional vs missional etc, etc.
I WISH WISH WISH we could have another “Jerusalem Council” like in Acts (maybe in Dallas or Atlanta or Denver) – what will it take to make that happen? does it already exist?
How about July 23rd in Denver? Any wealthy Christians want to pay for a meeting venue?
By faith, I’m personally inviting all the mega church guys Warren, Stanley, Groeschel, etc. + … actually who would represent the small churches? Frank Viola?

By: Matt

Matt — Fri, 20 Feb 2009 15:33:08 +0000

Let me qualify that last parenthetical comment. Numerical growth can and does happen without spiritual growth… very frequently perhaps. But spiritual/qualitative growth is not happening if numerical/quantitative growth is not occurring. The latter flows from the former (and not vice versa). Thanks for allowing me to clarify. :)

By: Matt

Matt — Fri, 20 Feb 2009 15:29:07 +0000

Didn't you answer the question? Both. What's unbiblical about that answer? Obviously it's also biblical to leave room for "pruning" (purging?) in churches. We can't be legalistic about growth. But it is very fair, and very crucial, to say that overall, over time, churches should be growing. Better than that, they should be growing, then multiplying. No one church should "grow" ad infinitum. But making disciples involves (1) increasing the number of disciples, and (2) increasing the quality/maturity of those disciples. This is straight biblical theology... and utterly logical. Will small church pastors be offended by this? Of course! Because it means that someone(s) somewhere aren't being faithful to the full extent of their calling. Too many pastors have a reductionistic view of the pastorate/priesthood in which they simply repeat, week after week, year after year, a set of skills or practices (e.g., preaching, counseling, burying and marrying, etc.). They've ignored the variety of issues inherent in their role as shepherd-leader and prophet. Rather than discouraging them, emphasizing the need for quantitative and qualitative growth (i'm doubtful, actually, as to whether either happens absent the other) should break them until they repent, and inspire them with what could, and should, be.

By: Url Scaramanga

Url Scaramanga — Fri, 20 Feb 2009 12:06:43 +0000

Kevin,
Thank you for the thoughtful recap and insight. You seem to be among the minority (or perhaps silent majority) that understood the point of my Ur Wisdom post.
Every church model has its strengths and weaknesses. I was simply pointing out the lost-in-the-crowd reality of many megachurches. That is something we willingly sacrifice for other things like a wide buffet of relevant programs, engaging worship, or top notch speakers that we may not find at a small church.
More Ur Wisdom will be coming that I’m sure will get under the skin of small church advocates too.
Ah, the endless joy of blogs.

By: ryan guard

ryan guard — Fri, 20 Feb 2009 10:09:39 +0000

I wouldn’t say that I was “calling him out”. I knew Tony had simply spoken too quickly, and that his comment could be misunderstood.
I like this quote from Dallas Willard. He was talking about scaling back on the marketing efforts in churches.
“We may not soon have bigger crowds around us- and in fact they may for a while even get smaller- but we will soon have bigger Christians for sure. This is what I call ‘Church growth for those who hate it.’ And bigger crowds are sure to follow, for the simple reason that human beings desperately need what we bring to them, the word and reality of The Kingdom Among Us.”
This sort of backwards thinking doesn’t seem popular in the church. Why not?

By: Jeremy

Jeremy — Fri, 20 Feb 2009 07:48:07 +0000

I’ll back Russ on the reproductive element. I think a church can be dying and the Church be perfectly healthy if reproduction is going on.
It’s like cells in a body – when cells only grow and multiply it’s not called health, it’s called cancer.